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Triumph TR6 - Supercharged TR6
|I'v decided to supercharge my engine and am in contact with a person in the US who is now|
manufacturing the kits. It is a "suck through" design using a single SU HD8 (2") carburetor. He also supply's new or refubished Eaton M62 3rd generation superchargers but I'm afraid to ask the cost.
Anyhow, my my question is, does anyone know which GM vehicls the Eaton M62 3rd generation was used on.
The 3rd gen have a bypass valve and port that allows the engine cruise off-boost with almost no power expended to turn the compressor.
The project cost will come in a little less than a tripple webber price tag.
Any members done this? Offer any advice?
73 5 Speed.
|John, No advice but I have always wondered what other upgrades are necessary to handle the additional work these blowers provide. What's the current thinking on that?|
|John, I'm also interested along the same line as Rick O. These engines have a very weak bottom (4 tiny mains and the big ends are small as well). I feel that if I would use the available power in my PI engine often the bearing rebuild frequence would be the same as my tires.|
|I'd be worried about the bottom end in higher rpm situations where piston speeds get too high. In those high piston acceleration applications people need to go with forged pistons, rods, crankshafts etc. |
The reason the supercharged six is so good for the street is it makes lots of power down low in the RPM range and the torque curve is flat all the way up.
Talk to the following guy and he'll tell you the thing is relaiable.
73 5 speed.
|At one time I thought about supercharging my TR-250. Then I ran across an article in Road & Track (August, 1978) about Ford's effort in turbocharging the Mustang II that ran thru some info about the engine changes they felt necessary to accomodate the higher mechanical/heat loads. Upgraded pistons, rings, valves, head gaskets, radiator, oil system (their turbo unit used the engine oil system for lubrication); and reduced compression ratio and recurved ignition timing & etc. All this for 6 lbs of boost, though, granted, they were trying to achieve "standard" reliability. I gave up the idea. You might want to see if your library has a copy of the article.|
|Henry J. Hruby|
I'm told by the engineer the TR6 engine in stock form is perfect for a supercharged application because the compression was dog low to begin with at under 8:1
There are no lubrication issues as the sc is self contained and does not use engine oil.
Ignition issues is easy since the MSD is available with a boost retard feature.
I think Ford had different parameters since thier cars were daily drivers that had to be designed to not hit the warranty program over thousands of mile.
Ours are 5 or 10 k per year.
The guys that have done this report no problems.
Besides, if I end up with holes in my pistons I'll install better ones. I do my own work so it's no big deal costwise.
John Parfitt73 5 Speed.
The only recent GM product I can think of to be supercharged is the Buick 3.8 litre V6, as used in Regal or Lesabre possibly.
Also could be the blower from a Ford Thunderbird, recent models came with supercharged V6 instead of V8.
I know Kas Kastner sold a turbo kit for the TR6 back in the early 1980's (you can see ads in your old Road and Track issues under R.K. Engineering), but I don't know how successful this was.
Supercharging is generally easier on the car because it works well at low rpm, and has been popular on small-engined Brit sports cars (MG and Sridgets particularly) since before the war using aftermarket Shorrock or Judson superchargers.
Given that our cars are used for occaisional fun not daily commuting I think if you have to do the bearings every 40,000 miles in stead of 80,000 it means every 10-15 years instead of 20-30 years. Not so bad?
Keep us informed of your progress, maybe Moss will offer a kit like the one for MGB!
Simon, WOFTAM Racing.
Have you checked this:
Peter Cobbold, who frequents this board, should be a wealth of information if thats what you are planning!
more info at:
6 Pack Summer 1997 issue has excellent article by Nick Formica 33 Birch Hill Drive New Britan, CT 060521 e-mail address unknown. He used an Eaton supercharger and a HD8 SU carb all on the right side of the motor. Made his own intake maniflod from aluminum. 1997 cost in the $1500.00 range.
|Gents those are some greate souces for information.|
There is a huge body of knowlege on the subject of supercharing British cars - this is nothing new.
For example, the following link is an excellent technical article about supercharging the MG cars.
73 5 speed.
While I applaud your project and would LOVE to follow along with it I must bring up the point you made about boost initiating a load on the bottom end.
Years ago I was heavily involved in turbo-supercharging of various engines with my Father. We did VW bugs, early civics, many pieces, many applications. In fact, Dad was involved with the early Mallicoat Brothers Funny Car that ran turbos (2 of course) rather than Rootes type.
Whew, anyway... remember that one of the side effects of Rootes type blowers is that the boost is there at initial throttle hit. THIS is one of the issues with bottom end 'opportunities' as far as hammering the rods, bearings, journals, etc.
Just something to think about.
btw, that idea about pulling from the carb is the onliest way to go of course. Then you don't have to 'seal' the pressure points on the carb mating surfaces.
Go for it!- that Eaton blower will transform the feel of the engine; torque like a V8 but with straight six balance. I used an old Wade blower, but the Eaton is a much more compact device.It's used on the MGB kit.
The three main things to watch out for are: the octane rating of the fuel you can easily obtain; the compresion ratio of the motor and the max boost you run. They are all inter-related- rubbish petrol will detonate at low boost if the CR is too high. If you have a low CR head that is a good start- I use 8.5 now, having melted three pistons when I started out woth a 9.5 head! (No serious damage, but lots of smoke. Mixture had weakened in a high speed sustained bend leading to detonation.....)
Boost at 1000rpm is around 1psi- no signs of bearing problems, and the take-up is much smoother that with the PI. I get 9psi max boost at 5000rpm, but it shoud be nearer 12- I made the outlet port of the blower rather too constricting.
No need to alter anything inside the engine-provide its in reasonable condition. You will need to change the distributor timing, but that's not to difficult. If you have a hot cam ( with inlet exhaust overlap)that's no good- go back to the standard cam)
Gene Holzclaw on this bulletin board a few months back is in process of using a Toyota blower on his TR6.
My email is pcobbold@briish library.net (correct the deliberate error first) You seem to be well informed on the benefits of supercharging, so any advive I can offer will be on details. I would advise getting hold of a copy of Allard's book- it's simpler that most more recent publications, but more apprppriate for classic cars.
|P H Cobbold|
|Aye, Peter - glad to see you're still around. Hadn't seen you in quite some time. I'd do it in a flash if the head wasn't shaved to 9.5:1. Maybe after I blow this one up! |
|I am still working on this project. I have completed the serpintine belt system including a a/c compressor all on a single belt. If it works anything like it looks, it will be too cool. I am using a Rootes style compessor off of a 95 Toyota Previa van. I am also doing EFI using the Lucas PI throttle bodies drilled to accept electronic injectors. I have talked MUCH with Mitch Self, and Dick Taylor (turbocharged) and both these guys say that reliability is NOT a problem. As a matter of fact, Dick T. has over 120k miles on his engine without a failure. Recommends it HIGHLY. Although he won't admit it (or hasn't to me), rumor has it that he has adjustable boost and spark retard and gets an occasional output exceeding 220hp on a STOCK engine.|
You could fit a blower to that 9.5 engine but keep boost rstricted to around 6psi max
-like Moss do for the MGB kit. Then fit a bigger crank pulley when you can swap that shaved head for a standard 8.5 item.
I reckon 220bhp (allowing 30 or so for driving the blower, leaving 190 conventional bhp and around 160hp at the wheels) is possible. But only with really good fuel, 6000rpm, boost-retard,12 psi boost.And then only for brief perioda, before things get too hot in the combustion chambers. Your approach of intercooling should geatly help you get up there.
A 1930s Riley racer over here gets 260 from 2.5litres on petrol with 2 draw-through SU carbs. But it has a hemi-head that reduces onset of detonation. If the squish in the TR's head was not impaired in the low compression heads we might aspire to similar outputs...
|P H Cobbold|
|I installed the Eaton Supercharger, M62, with the SU carb a few weeks ago. I was worried about overheating problems here and installed an aluminum rad. It's been 105+ lately but no problems. For the first time I get even idle rpm's regardless of the temp.|
I installed a MSD ignition system that retards timing as boost increases to prevent detonation. Car definitely has more umph. It'll rev like never before and I haven't really begun to dial in the timing and mixture. Sounds great too with the increased "air" coming out!
I'm still debating about the cost. Ask me after I get it dialed in and after I have to pass emissions to renew the tags.
Well, its all a bit of a pipe dream for me right now, but I am shopping around for a TR6. Man, what a sexy car it is indeed. I have conquered the first challange (convicing the wife) and have been told that next year maybe an option :-)
Since I don't have one, I have been doing a whole lot of reading .....and.... dreaming about them. The one thing that took me a little to get over is the lack of horses in the US TR6. I am convinced now that supercharging is the way to go, but I am still interested to know how much more power we are really looking at gaining? Particularly, how much more torque?
My Dad has a saying: People buy HP but they drive Torque. I never knew what he ment untill I bought my Grand Prix....... Anyways I am rambeling...please forgive!
John P - To answer your question about the M62 (as Simone has already stated) Buik Regal uses it as well as the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP and the new Monte Carlo SS. All of them are sporting the mighty 3.8 V6. I would have to say that this blower would be a wise choice. Infact, when my dream becomes reality ( when wife says I can) That is what I am going to do.
Please keep us posted on what you do
|Your choice of M62 will depend on which supercharging kit you are using. |
I believe the original VIS kit and the new kit both use a generic M62. I'v send some photo's around by email and discovered that none of the M62 configurations used by GM will work.
Hopefully big John R. can help with the details. Where did his kit come from. What M62 config - is it the generic M62 etc?
Anyone want to trade a low compression head for my 9.5:1 recently machined head?
73 5 Speed.
|You might want to examine the benefits of using the Megasquirt EFI system http://www.msefi.com/|
The group provides support for a non-commercial EFI system that can run on practically any engine. I have used it on my 1974 1/2 Triumph TR6 to generate 180 HP at the rear wheels using pump gas and a scant 6 pounds of boost at 5000 foot elevation (equivalent to 3 pounds of boost at sea level).
You can get more information about my vehicle at:
Hope this helps.
Your setup is so good especially since it looks like you did it on a low budget with great engineering skills!
I'v been reading the Megasqirt manual and think I'll go down that path. I'v got a computer science and industrial controls background so should know enough to be dangerous.
Would you be willing to share any of your details - what injectors did you use. What does your fuel map look like etc.
But again, well done - must go like a V8.
73 5 Speed.
|The injectors are from a Volvo 740 Turbo, Bosch 0 280 150 357 with a flow rate of 29 lb/hr. With a BSFC of 0.55 and an 80% duty cycle the injectors will support up to 250 HP.|
The VE map is now posted on my web site, the direct link to the page is:
Hope this helps
|FYI Bennett French did a supercharger for a local customer. Contact Bennett at WWW.mybritishcar.com . His Hendersonville NC business is The British Connection. 828-685-8483 |
How is your quest for the M62?
Can you plumb air to your set up so you can use any M62 you can lay your hands on?
My search for the superchager kit is not going well. The person who is manufacturing the kit has designed the thing around a "generic M62" which makes things expensive. His price for the kit and a new supercharger is over $2,000 US. I wanted to purchase a kit for arount $500 and then score an General Motors configuration M62 for about $350 US. At two grand I'm out of the project for now.
But - instead I'm thinking of cooking up a homegrown fuel injected, turbocharger installation. I'v ordered the "Megasquirt" EFI computer and have a spare TR6 manifold which I'll be sending out to have injector bungs installed. I'v got a throttle body from a Ford V8 and fuel pump from a Jetta. Might just do the project in two phases - first fuel injection and then pressurize the engine.
Arkay (CA) did a turbo kit for TR6 in 1970s. There's a photo of the kit on a left hand steer car in Allard's book. Used a Weber carb, and wet turbo. Your injection and an intercooler would be great! But no good on UK cars as steering column will foul turbo
|P H Cobbold|
This thread was discussed between 09/06/2004 and 30/08/2004
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