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Triumph TR6 - What year motor do I have?
|How do I go about finding out what year the motor (CC84137UE)I have was manufactured. It has the early type TR6 intake so I assume it is pre-1971 this is the only number to indicate it is a 2.5L as it was delivered to me in a wrecked scrapped out GT6 Mk.III parts car that went on to the great scrap yard in the sky after I pulled the factory wires, and GT6 Overdrive out of it. Thanks Jeremiah|
|According to a Victoria British TR6 catalog I just picked up this should be a late 1972 motor going by the numbers however going by the illistration of the intake in the catalog I have a pre-1971 I trust the block number and I assume I have the wrong intake so will the early intake work on a later head/motor?|
|If you have access to The Roadster Factory's excellent two volume catalog, I suggest you cross-reference with it. I have found it to be very accurate.|
The E in the engine Serial number just means that it is a Engine SN.
The U appeared in the engine SN beginning of '72 model year for export particularly to NA. All engines with prefix CC are before '73. So yes your engine is 1972.
BUT...The main change point was at Engine SN CC75000 1972 model year). This is when the dual down pipe started and went up to engine CF35000. As a side note, the intake manifold changed during the early years. One went up to CC50000 then from this number to CC75000. Then the intake change again from CC75000 to CF12500 (End of 1973 model year). CF35000 (start of 1975 model year) saw the start of air injection. 1974....big question??
SOOO to answer your question (ya I know finally) I do not believe you can use the single down pipe with the dual down pipe intake or exhaust systems. The question to you Jeremiah is both your intake and exhaust for a dual down pipe system?
The exhaust is obvious to tell single or dual. The intake has 2 visible differences.
1: The mounting bolt to head is long with the head of the bolt out near the carbs (before CC75000).
1: The mounting bolt to the head is short..the bolt head is right at the mounting flange ( After CC75000).
2: The water pipe is not part of the casting (it is a pipe between the 2 carb mounting flanges) after CC75000 and before CC75000 it is part of the casting just like the mounting bolt holes.
|Jeremiah-Just to muddy the waters, I believe (from the serial #) you have the later type block with the grooves around the cyl. tops, which means the later type head gasket must be used. Any head will fit any block and since the exhaust port spacing didn't change, either the single or dual exhaust system can be used with either head. Only the intake manifold must be matched to the different head types. Hope I didn't put hoof in mouth.|
|OK it's official my head is spinning....down pipe single or dual?, grooved intake early or later intake I used the exhaust manifold that came with the motor but I used a new GT6+ gasket which fit just fine everything matched up port wise and the early intake also fit the head fine the only thing odd was that I will need to use two LONG bolts to atach the intake to the block I guess I could track down a later intake if I need to. I'm very dumb when it come to this stuff all of my experence has been with MG's and this is my first endevor into Triumphs please be very basic when explaining this stuff. What am I looking for if I'm standing in front of the car this kind of stuff|
From your description of the intake "....the only thing odd was that I will need to use two LONG bolts to attach the intake to the block I guess I could track down a later intake if I need to." says you have the earlier intake ..up to CC75000. The LONG bolts is the give away clue. According to Berry, this is wrong for your block. Berry, I question this as it looks like the difference is in the exhaust porting shape rather than the intake. Now I really have your head spinning. HELP from the engine guys please.
Dual or single down pipe. The exhaust manifold has either one or 2 exhaust pipes attached to it. The 2 (dual) pipes being the later version.
"What am I looking for if I'm standing in front of the car this kind of stuff" You do not need to stand in front of the car Jeremiah. Not sure why you say this as you have said " Long bolts....track down later intake." This says to me you know the difference between the 2 intakes.
|I have the 4 Single down pipe exhaust manifolds and this is also the exhaust system I have on the car as well Bottom line is I have a EARLY carb intake /exhaust system on a LATER block Will this work? correctly I know it will work as this is how the car was delivered and I started it and drove it a bit before pulling everything however I want to do things write the first time I can change the intake to match the block but I'm locked in to the exhaust side due to the rest of the exhaust. Speaking of intakes for a moment I have a GT6 setup on a 2.0 motor and just to get things up and running to check for leaks and stuff can I put the intake on the 2.5 to run the car throught it paces?.... Thanks for the help and keep teaching me about Triumphs and I will convert you guys to MG's|
|Heres something else to throw into the pot, could the PO have put a early head on a later block to allow for the single down pipe and early intake or how about this placing a GT6 head on a TR6 block.....you imput Please|
|Jeremiah& Rick-Now you have me confused. The exhaust ports are the same on both types of TR6 heads. I and others are using the twin pipe exhaust manifold on the early heads that came with the single pipe. Roger Williams "How to Restore TR6&250"(page 82) shows the 2 types of heads and how distinguish them-the gap between the intake ports is 9/16",for the early type 7/8" for the later type used with the dual exhaust and less restrictive intake manifold. If the intake manifold came from a GT6, if may have used 1.5" carbs instead of the 1.75" carbs on the TR6, I think. Maybe someone can supply the serial # of both heads.|
|An early head can be used on a late block and a late head can be used on an early block. The key is to get the correct head gasket and the correct manifold gasket.|
If you are removing the head look at the block deck surface and see if it has recesses around the bore. If so, you need the late head gasket. The easiest way to tell on the head and intake manifold is to compare the inlet port openings to the early and the late gasket cutouts for the inlet port. What ever way you go there, the key is that all three match. You could also measure cylinder head thickness, but this is dicey as you never know what someone may have done to the head previously.
If you have an early head, the port spacing on the 2.0L engines are the same as the TR250 and early carb engined TR6s. All PI TR5 and TR6 used the wide port spacing that is also found on the later carb engined TR6s. So yes, you can fit the GT6 stuff to see if it runs and you may even be able to do if you have a later head as long as you are prepared for the possibly of intake leaks.
In a similar vein, a later TR6 crank, flywheel and starter may be used on the TR250/TR5 and 1969 TR6 as long as all three are used and conversely the earlier crank, flywheel and starter can be used on a later car if all three are used although I can't see why one would want to do that second one.
|OK with ALL this said I never pulled the head on the motor I just swaped out lumps just FYI the motor in question came out of a 73 GT6 MKIII piece of Crap donor car with NO history and I'm installing it in a 69 GT6 MKII show car. I belive unless I must change out single for dual and late intake for early I will stay with that I have if it will work correctly. Now back to my original hunt, Carbs to fit this intake I see that there are 3 basic options in carb setups 1) ZS 175's 2) SU HS6's or Triple Webers please weigh in on these three and to what is best or personal prefrence what are the differences between #1 and #2|
|OK, lets go at this ONE more time. The block has absolutely nothing to do with fitting the cylinder head or the manifolds. IF you are going to pull the head for whatever reason, look for recesses to help determine if it is an early or late block. |
ALL production GT6s were fitted with a single outlet exhaust manifold from the factory. ALL of these heads use the same exhaust port spacing so ALL of these exhaust manifolds will fit ALL of these heads. ALL production GT6s left the factory with CD-150 carbs on manifolds with the early TR250/TR6 inlet port spacing.
ALL of the intake manifolds can be bolted up to ALL of the heads. They KEY is to get match the INTAKE PORT SPACING for the head, the manifold and the gasket. There is another critical factor once that match is established, you need to establish what carbs would fit the manifold. If it the early port spacing, does the intake that you have on the engine have four bolts holes or two at the mount flange and what is the diameter of the opening? Best to verify those things before getting too far down the road. No point in getting 1.75" carbs if the manifold is for 1.5" units.
To use a triple DCOE set up on a GT6, you may use either a GT6 or a TR6 manifold (matched to the prot spacing of course). However, you MUST use a GT6 specific intake manifold or be prepared to make a CUTOUT AND FABRICATE A BLISTER ala the TR4/TR4A/TR5/TR250 to clear the forward carb if you use a TR6 manifold. Also be prepared to spend a few hundred bucks on spare carb parts (venturis, idle, air correction, main and pump jets, pump exhaust valves, emulsion tubes) as the odds of pulling a DCOE out of the box and it being right for your car are somewhere between none and what have you been smoking. Then you get to go through the set up routine with lots of ignition/throttle cuts, plug readings and such. They are nice once set up, but getting there can be a real trip.
I generally prefer SUs over Strombergs, but if it were me, I'd probably be looking for HIF6s ahead of the HS6s. There is no BEST, it is a function of what YOU want to do with the car. Do your homework and select accordingly. Note that the bonnet clearance issue may come up using a TR250/TR6 manifold and carb set up on a GT6. Never tried it, so don't know for sure.
By the way, there are also differences between the 2.0L six and the 2.5L six oil pans that hamper interchangability.
|I have most all the basics out opf the way The pan has been dimpled to fit the 2,5 and is sitting in the car as we speak as for the bonnet clearence I have that figured out as well I have several very good GT6 bonnets so I am going to forgo the blister and just cut out a very nice little clean hole to clear the carbs and finish it off I figure if the big boys can do it with big block chrome blowers why can't I. I have encountered a few issues but nothing I can't buy my way out of like discovering the the crank pullys are different between the 2.0 and 2.5 therefore I can not use the GT6 fan belt and there is an extra hose nipple on the end of the water pump/manifold pipe that I did not have on the 2.0 so I just pluged it and went on so all things consitered everything is going OK and I should be breathing fire into this thing within days I have never heard of the HIF6 carb what was this carb on? as for the question of 2 or 4 studs on the intake the early TR6 I have has 4 and all the rest of the GT6 intakes I have have 2 this will be the intake set up I use for the INITIAL start up to check for leaks & squeaks and get the oil flowing then they will come off when I find the right carb setup for the TR6 intake Thanks|
|"What am I looking for if I'm standing in front of the car this kind of stuff"|
Jeremiah, Are you trying to scam us or what?????
"I have the 4 Single down pipe exhaust manifolds"....
What do you really want us to tell you???
I mean like I do not even know if you have a GT6 or a TR6???
One other thing...we try to spell correctly and try to be grammatically correct.
Berry, I do not confess to be an engine guy like SteveP. I just looked at the difference between the 2 exhaust gaskets on TRF Plate BY. They are different. Thanks to to guys like Steve, we will all learn.
|This thread is starting to remind me of the old Abbott&Costello routine "Who's On First?"|
|I have a 1969 GT6+ with a 1972 TR6 motor in it CLEAR I do not know a darn thing about TR6's or there motors and this is why I'm here I want to do this conversion correctly the first time and who better to go to for advice than TR6 guys I'm sorry if I do not type well trust me I speak better than I type from this page I have learned a number of things both TR related and some about personalities. I was brought up to help others and if they did not understand then I explained it until they did or I found a way to explain it so they did. I do not make aqusations like SCAMMING US I'm sorry if this thred sounds like an Abbot and Costello bit maybe you would like to buy a plane tic. and fly out to meet me and explain it in person. For those of you that have taken the time to e-mail me and explain things further I THANK YOU and feel free to continue..... Bottom line is I have a later block with a early intake and exhaust system is this clear enough.....Thank you|
|Jeremiah-I am sorry my remark offended, it was not intended to be sarcastic or belittle a person new to the wonderful world of TR6s.|
Rick C.- After looking at the plate in the TRF catalog, it does appear that there is a difference in the exhaust ports of the 2 dual exhaust manifolds, but that is not the case. Also confusing is the listing of 3 different gaskets, but only 1 is available according to the price list.
|YUP... finally clear|
A "GT6 Mk.III parts car that went on to the great scrap yard in the sky" reincarnated as a GT6+(show car) with a later TR6 block and an earlier TR6 exhaust system with an "...all the rest of the GT6 intakes I have have 2 this will be the intake set up I use for the INITIAL start up" then converted to a "...then they will come off when I find the right carb setup for the TR6 intake" with a "I used a new GT6+ gasket which fit just fine" (exhaust/intake gasket) and finally a "The pan has been dimpled to fit the 2.5 ".
OK Jeremiah, I confess and apologize to you. The word SCAM was/is a harsh word. (period). And I apologize to you again that I now see that " I'm installing it in a 69 GT6 MKII" ((I?)) " show car" that you let us know 6 post later.
Sorry, but it just seamed like you where jumping all over the place.
" Now back to my original hunt, Carbs to fit this intake..." Sorry I was under the impression you where ORIGINALLY asking "How do I go about finding out what year the motor (CC84137UE)I have was manufactured. It has the early type TR6 intake so I assume it is pre-1971 this is the only number to indicate it is a 2.5L..." I think I answered THAT question.
"OK with ALL this said I never pulled the head on the motor I just swapped out lumps just FYI the motor in question came out of a 73 GT6 MKIII piece of Crap..." I apologize to you I was under the impression the engine was from a TR6. Maybe some of this stuff should have been said in your original post.
We have had on this TR6 BBS a few scams in the past.
" have a 1969 GT6+ with a 1972 TR6 motor in it CLEAR I do not know a darn thing about TR6's or there motors and this is why I'm here I want to do this conversion correctly the first time and who better to go to for advice than TR6 guys ". Yes agreed, the best place to find out what you have in a motor. Not exactly the best place to look for advice on putting a TR6 engine into a GT6+ show car though.
But I am missing something here...did you not say the engine "..came out of a 73 GT6 MKIII piece of Crap..." Maybe I am not clear????
I have said many times (and asked for help) I am not an engine guy. Even the expert Steve Ps'. post left me confused about the factory and their myriad of configurations crossing the BL line of cars.
Not trying to be a smart ..., I still ask about your exhaust manifold ( with no s on the end).
"I have the 4 Single down pipe exhaust manifolds.." Kinda sounds like a header off of a 4 banger.
I guess my question still stands.... WHAT??
OK My turn:" from this page I have learned a number of things both TR related and some about personalities. I was brought up to help others and if they did not understand then I explained it until they did or I found a way to explain it so they did."
This is your first post to this BBS (you might want to make note here Jeremiah, that I have apologized to you). I have been on this TR6 BBS since 1998. I have absolutely no idea the numbers of Threads (asking for help)or posts (giving help)I have done. Ya it could be said that I might get "controversial" some times (like now:) but I take offense in questioning my "personality" and suggesting I was not brought up properly and do not help other people. As just ONE example, maybe you might want to go back in time through the ARCHIVES...you do not need to go to far back..like earlier this year and look into some threads about a TR6 CD. No did not do the CD all by myself but did make sure it got out to who ever wanted it FREE ( OK so I screwed up with Roger:). Yes you are welcome to one if you want one.
Ya I probably spend as much time off line (via e-mail)helping others on this BBS as I do here on the BBS.
Oh Ya, have a look at the current thread BRITISH CAR DAY/BRONTE.
Finally, "Thanks for the help and keep teaching me about Triumphs and I will convert you guys to MG's "
Sorry for the long post guys.
Who's on first? Berry, one of my all time favorites!
|Let's let by gones be by gones and just go on with things I have the motor in and am down to finding carbs they may be SU ZS or weber this has not been chosen yet what I do know is that everything has fit to this point and I hope to have a set of carbs on the car today and it running this week to check for leaks and sqeaks. Thank you all for your assistence|
This thread was discussed between 16/09/2005 and 19/09/2005
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