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Triumph TR6 - Where has GL4 gear oil gone???
|I am surprized I have not seen this being asked sooner. I bought a jug of StaLube GL4 gear oil (in the US) from NAPA about 3 years ago and it is now empty. I recall doing a search for this back then. Our transmissions CAN NOT take GL5 gear oil and I am one of the lucky ones who has OD so I can not use Synthetic either.|
WHAT IS EVERYONE PUTTING IN THEIR TRANSMISSIONS?
I have done considerable research lately and yup it is available from people like Red Line at a rediculious price of $18.00/L. I refuse to pay that rip off price. If you go on the internet you will see that even guys with their little farm tractors are running looking for something to fill their 5 GALLON sumps. At $18 a litre they will have to re-morgage their homes!
I had my son call his oil guy he buys from and the Valvoline guys says I know the problem and I can sell you a 5 gallon pail of GL4 80W 90 for $75.00!!!!!
I will be dead before I use half of it!!
This is crazy. I have drained my tranny and am looking for a solution.
Does anyone know which (if any) GL5 80W 90 gear oils are yellow metal safe??
I have head that the stuff at Walmart is but I do not know if I trust that.
Remember no synthetic. and I do not wish to drive to the US to get it. I really do not want to put in a 30 weight oil either.
|Your problem is your in Canuck Land. I'll get back to you about what everyone is using|
CRC through Amazon.com; on sale for 6.99/32 oz or about $28.00USD/gal. 85/90 wgt Manual Transmission Oil, GL-4. Redline is about $162.00USD/Gal
|Doug and Don|
I knew I would get a quick response from both of you. Like you say Don, The problem is I do not live in the good ol' USofA. It is very difficult to get "liguids" shipped up across the border not to mention duty and shipping. I knew Sta Lube is still available at NAPA. NAPA is up here but do not carry CRS stuff. I recall only paying about $15.00 3 years ago.
My tranny is currently empty and I would like to drive my car REAL soon.
Thanks..any other comments??
PS a word of advise to any one doing a body off restorationn on their car. If your diff does not have a drain hole then I STRONLY advise doing the drill and tap thing. It is virtually imposible to split the back half off enough to let the fluid drain...you really need to pull the dif to do this. Also I have tried to put a small plastic hose in the fill hole and pump out the fluid but can only go in so far before I hit gears.
Can any one tell me exactly where the hole gets drilled. I recall when I did the restoration that when I had the back cover off, there was a location in the casting that was designed for a drain hole. MAN I wish I had done it then!
And the search in the great white north continues....
I read SAE30 or Valvoline racing oil (20w50) are the best for OD gearboxes. No matter you have a non-OD one's it should be suitabe for your application. I also remember in my B-GT manual, a car from same era, it was in 1968: 20w50 recommended oil.
|J. G. Catford|
|NAPA down the road from me has it...so I'm using it. We all don't live in the Great White North.|
|Rick-There is a nickle sized boss on the underside of the diff housing where the drain plug lived in previous models. I think the plug is 3/8" NPT. A nickle is about what Triumph saved by eliminating the plug.|
|Probably one of the best lay person treatise on the subject of GL-4 vs. GL-5 and yellow metal corrosion is from a website devoted to VW Type II vehicles. This subject comes up a good bit on Miata based boards since one type of transmission say either GL-4 or Gl-5 while another type is GL-4 only. If you donít have overdrive and want to run a synthetic, the hot lick over there is the Ford/Motorcraft Fully Synthetic Transmission fluid, part number XT-M5-QS, URL:|
For the OD transmission crowd, ND 30wt or Valvolineís Racing 20W50 is the hot lick.
Hereís the URL for the Type II site and the GL4 vs GL-5 discussion (iíve never had one, but always had a soft spot in my head for them):
Regarding the diff drain plug, that is an advantage of running one of the Nissan diffs, they have a drain plug, no need to pull it out and drain/drill and tap for one.
|So Rick, how difficult would it be to ship UPS to you? Duties/etc.? I'll be glad to get a gallon or so and send it on up. Just let me know.|
Like JG said and with the my later chime in, with the OD gearbox, either a non-detergent 30 wt or the Valvoline Racing ND 20w50 is the hot lick. He should be able to find either in Canada, no need to ship.
As for the Ford/Motorcraft synthetic stuff mentioned earlier for the non-OD gearboxes, you do need to make sure that you get the specific part number mentioned and accept no substitute. I have heard stories from more than one person on Miata.net about some parts person telling them that the GL-5 synthetic is the same thing/replaces/supersedes, etc. Don't believe that, you only want the XT-M5-QS. The Miata 5 speed units seem to be relatively tolerant, but the six speed units are not. There is an significant difference in the shifting behavior between the original fill and the XT-M5-QS replacement fill.
Make sure you check out Atwell's site, lots of good stuff there for the air cooled set or anyone else with the remotest interest.
When a my tranny was rebuilt in 2008, the shop put in 30 weight. I won't mention the shop's name here but they are well versed in TR6s. Is there a reason you don't want to put in 30 weight? If you want the name of the shop to talk to them, let me know via e-mail.
|Thanks for the replys guys.|
First off I literally spent the day looking for tranny oil. I went to a Shell oil depot. Ended up on the phone with a head office techy. He said He does not recomend any of their GL-5 for a tranny with yellow metal. ( I have read on the ever trusty internet that Shell spirax 80w90 is safe...NOT!) Went to Wallymart as One site said their Supertech 85w/140 said right on the bottle "safe for yellow metals".....NOT!!. Next stop a GM dealership Where their part #xxx met their spec #xxxx and was safe for yrllow metals..it was synthetic...NOT!!! SIDE NOTE: saw EOS for $8.45 a pint. so still out there. As stated above, I have OD tranny. Chrysler dealership same story ...NOT!!! I have even seen on one site a suposed oil expert said that MOST GL-5 HYpoy gear oils are safe for yellow metal. Even a foreign (europe) car repair place said use 20W50...."it is the spec for that engine".....NOT!!!!
My head is totally dizy. It appears there is nothing to be trusted on the internet.
There is one thing I do trust. This will also answer some questions above. The official shop manual for my car that was written back in the 70s says GL-4 PERIOD! not 20W50 or even 30 non detergent.
I am so frustrated that I give up with only one success. I have found GL-4 in Canada. It is Red Line 75w85 GL-4 Non Syn. CarQuest part # WPC 3L175-389025-RED now hopefully you are sitting down... cost $18.95/ QT. We need over a quart with OD but I will mix it with Castrol 30 non detergent and some Lucas oil Stabilizer.
I can hardly wait to make a trip to the US so I can get myself some StaLube GL-4 80/90 at a NAPA store.
Ok...now to respond. Thanks for the offer Doug but you can not ship it by UPS as it is considered a hazerdious material/liquid and they will not ship it.
Thanks Berry..is the boss on the main casting or the back half..did not see it on the back half. I am contemplating drilling a hole then tapping it. Would not be that difficult. The only problem would be the potential of leaving "chips" in the diff after doing the drill and tap. Just does not make sence not being drilled by the factory but then the nickle saving would make sence back then.
Steve yes there are a few sites with this ongoing discussion. Even guys with old army trucks and small farm tractors are having this problem. Why does someone still not offer it? The army guys are talking about 5 gallons to do tranny changes! That is a bit of coin!
All I want to do is get my car on the road and have some fun.
|Rick-The boss for the drain plug is just forward of the flange that the rear cover bolts to.|
This may be hypocrisy and is just my opinion, but I doubt that any of us or cars will be around long enough to see any damage from using GL5 in the trans. or diff. I doubt if many people were even aware of the yellow metal corrosion thing or the difference between GL4&5 before the mid 80s. If the cars were serviced at a service station or garage, who knows what was dispensed . Anybody have first hand experience of corrosion damage of synchros or bushings caused by GL5 oil?
Thanks for the info. So it is on the main housing. I will have a look. Any thoughts on drilling and taping and chips. I would rather do it in place.
I have definitely been called anal when it comes to my MSTRS. From what I have read, the attack of the yellow metal can be quite quick....gees sounds like a horror film:) As you can appreciate, the tranny is not the easiest to remove and work on.
Keep in mind this problem is only up here in Canada not where you live. Why is the question. I really do not see such a fuss (in the US) when all one has to do is go to his local NAPA store and get GL-4.
Here is an interesting point. GL-4 also has sulfur in it. This is the ingredient that attacks the yellow metals in any transmission. I have read that GL-5 has twice as much EP (Extreme Pressure) additive than GL-4. This means twice as much Sulfur. This is the only reason why GL-5 is not suitable for trannys. I think GL-5 has only been around for 5 years. PLS correct here if wrong.
(NOTE: this is only a problem with OD transmissions not NON OD trannys. Synthetic GL-5 can be used).
GL-5 appears to be OK in a differential even if it has yellow metal components which in our case does not. Yes you read that correctly. This EP additive only becomes a problem when the temperature is high in the tranny. Diffs do not get up in temp like a tranny does. What the temp is I do not know. I presume it is easily reached in a tranny because this is when and why the additive is there in the first place. This explains my reluctance to use an engine oil in my tranny. Regular oil does not have this EP additive. Gear oils are designed to "cushion" the meshing of the gears. The EP additive takes the extreme pressure between the gears and prevents metal to metal contact thus giving longer life.
Not sure why I said all that as I am sure you know this...I guess just explaining my main reason for wanting to stick to gear oil.
The typical nasty EP additive in GL-5 is molybdenum disulfide which is also used in many CV joint greases (hence the the smell that you can't wash off, it has to wear away).
The key is that crude oil by default has sulphur in it, some crudes have more than others. Sweet crudes, like from Libya for example, have less while other crudes, like the Saudi stuff have lots more. What this means is that different crudes have varying specific product yields in a barrel of oil than others. One of the big thing is getting rid of the sulohur for many products and the less you have to begin in the starting stock, the less you have to get rid of for various products.
Regarding the now conacelled MIL-L-2104E, the subtiered document ASTM D130 is a comparative test to assess the corrosion potential to yellow metals of gear oils. The ASTM "provides" (as in sells) a set of comparitive color strips that are used to compare the colors of polished copper strips following exposure to the gear oil under a number of specified conditions. Based on the color comparison a grade and subgrade are given. If you're going to use it in a transmission, you want a "1a".
|Rick-I guess I was just questioning whether there is any evidence of damage by GL5. Sometimes there is a lot of over concern about issues like valve seat recession from unleaded gas, the zddp debate, silicone brake etc. There is an article on the Buckeye site about gearbox lube choices and also Quantums. I went with 20-50R in my A type od because of Espositos recommendation against 90wt gear oil and because the od was slow to release. As far as drilling the diff in place, it could be done with a jack under the drill motor, but I would be concerned about the chips. A magnetic drain plug might be a good investment. If it was me, I would put the project off until the diff was out of the car.|
|Hi Rick... long time no BBS. Been south and preoccupied. I bought my GL4 from TRF at $8.94/quart. Since I was south I had it shipped within the US with other parts and brought it all home as part of my personal exemption. I did not know that it would become tough to get here or I would have offered to bring some back for you. |
Try Brian at Cullingford in Barrie. He processes more LBC's through that place than anyone I know in Canada. Kyle is his parts guy.
|Here is what I got back this Good Friday from two oil suppliers.|
Is your Valvoline 80W/90 High Performance gear oil safe for manual trasmissions with
>>>> brass syncro rings?
"The Valvoline Gear Oils can be used for both GL4 and GL5. The real concern is the type of sulfate used in the gear oil. You can not use an active sulfate for GL-4 applications. Valvoline uses an inactive sulfate that will not harm any yellow metal such as bronze. This allows our products to be used in manual transmissions that have bronze synchronizers."
I have seen this statement twice now about active and inactive.
Recommendations: I have a price from a CarQuest parts store for RED LINE 75W85 GL-4 NON SYN ( their part # WPC 3L175-389025-RED). Is this a non synthetic oil? I can not use synthetic oil with my overdrive. Thank you
"Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, all of our lubricants are full synthetic, the MT-85 is a 75W85 GL-4 gear oil, I dont have a reference to that specific part number. In your TR6 overdrive transmission the product recommended is the MT-90, it has been used extensively and performs well in the Laycock overdrives, isnt too slippery for the transmission synchros or the overdrive clutch.
Red Line Oil"
I am impressed. Both replied on Good Friday. I have thanked them both.
Obviously only one of them will get my business but at least the rest of Canada knows 2 oils we can use.
WOW...Mr or should I say DR. Knowledge.
I did my research and was aware of the "active and inactive" Sulphate issue. The problem is that you have to ask the correct questions to get this answer. There is not one oil supplier/producer that mentions(advertises) wether their oil EP sulpher content is active or inactive. So when you see an answer to a question that answer which one it is....they know what you(I) want and are obviously aware of an issue.
I went out to our meeting at the pub today and this came up. It was said by my British buddy that you will be dead and gone long before the tranny wears out. THIS MAY BE SO.....BUT.,....
I spent 3 years and a whole wack of money putting my MSTRS back on the road. I am not about to just say no problem throw in GL-5.
I will continue to go by what was (and appears still is) available as proper products to use to keep her happy.
Remember I said I was anal?
There is proof as he steps off his soap box.
Oh Ya Thanks Berry. When Are you comming up my way???
I know, not that really bad to do if you have a lift.
|That's the responses I got from the Canuckians I queried.|
Valvoline and Redline.
Buck up the 18 Canadian Dollars /liter my friend. When do you think the next time you will change it will be?
2bucks a year mot to bad
I found two possibilities to easily solve your problem:
amsoil synthetic MTG GL4( but sime mentioned synth. are not good)
or as some always mentioned, Triumph are tractor related. I found for Valtra farm tractor (super) a GL4 lube.
I imagine you can also find it in Deere or MF. You will look a bit like Mr Douglas (green acres) if you tell it is for a Triumph...
|J. G. Catford|
|Rick-I think BC is about as far North as the TR has been. The chance of getting wife to travel to Ontario in the 6 are much less than winning the lottery. It seems like there are always a few diehard Canadians from Ontario that come to the ABFM at Portland, usually top down all the way. Maybe one of them could pickup some GL4 or the Mexican drug cartel mules might break into the GL4 market.|
My TR leaks from the tranny and the front of the engine block. So I need to do a top up of the tranny in the spring and once during the driving season. I probably only put in about 4 ounces. That is why my jug of StaLube is empty to the point of not being able to do a full gearoil change. Not bad, it did last for 4 years. This is actually the first time I have done a full drain of the tranny so 10years later is not bad. Granted I have done an oil change over the years. Talked to my brother yesterday and he was on his way back down to southern US. I asked him to pick me up a jug of StaLube. So might have one within the next 2 weeks. It will be good to have for toping up over the next 5 years.
Berry, most of the talk out there is from the likes of VW owners foreign car owners and even guys with army trucks. Not a lot from LBC people. These are the ones talking about transmissions with yellow metals. I have no first had knowledge of damage.. I am only going by what I read. I am not impressed with what people say about solving the problem on these sights. On one BBS a guys just blerts out "all GL-5 is safe for transmissions with yellow metals." One post later and he is sternly corrected. There are deffinitely people that say I am over reacting. Maybe I am. I think I have already stated where I am comming from. Simply why did they take away GL-4 completely when there are still a lot of modern vehicles that require the lower EP additives of GL-4 and are doing harm if they use GL-5.
Jean, you are mistaken. I do have an OD transmission so as you know Synthetic is out of the question.
|Before finding out Valvoline gear oils are yellow metal safe, I asked my brother pick up a jug of StaLube. He has it so will get it next week...$35.00. I am going to get 2 quarts of Valvoline at the NAPA store down the road on the weekend...$7.00 a quart.|
Got a reply back from CRS (StaLube parent company) and he has given me an Ontario phone number to contact re StaLube in Canada. Will post results of conversation.
Just got a reply from Castrol and their reply was a mile long going into hypoy and stuff. Sufice to say they use ACTIVE sulfates so Catrol GL-5 is no good for our trannys.
Since I kicked the hornet's nest in the "Tyres" post, how about Royal Purple (85/90 I think)Max Gear Lube? That's what's in mine........
|There ya go and Bob's your uncle|
If/when you drill & tap & install diff drain plug will you post a pic for location? My diff(s) are both on the floor so it's a good time to do this. Practice on the spare and then do the runner. According to TRF you just buy a sump/gearbox drain plug and drill and tap for that. Correct?
|Archives again! Just found this from Berry back in March 2002. Thanks Berry. Still like to see a pic but sure I'll find the location with these instructions.|
Berry, Albany, OR, email@example.com
Rick-The plug size is 3/8" taper pipe, the same as all of the drain&fill plugs. On the bottom of diff housing next to the flange is a raised boss, which I believe is intended location for the drain plug. It is not much larger than the plug hole, so care must be used in locating the hole. It is possible to use other areas. Because of the size of the hole it would be difficult to drill with the diff in the car. I just finished drilling&tapping an extra diff. I made a fixture to hold it, as it is awkward to hold in a drill press. Makes you wonder why the plugs were eliminated to save a few cents. Berry
Thanks for the info from Berry. I recall that post now. Ya it would be much safer to pull the dif and drill the hole. I do not have a spare dif so my practice attempt is for real.
I agree, no logic in not putting in a drain plug.
The IF may be closer than the WHEN.
To change the oil, the Bentley manual says remove the silencer then pull the back cover off the housing. Refit new gasket and fill. How stupid!
PS put the valvoline in and now have a jug of StaLube.
|What ever happen to Berry?|
"whatever happen to Berry"?
Like, since 23 Apr 2011, dude? Yer spendin' too much time over on that "other" British car forum.
|Berry is alive&well (as a 67 year old can be). He is lurking in the weeds and cruises all the forums. He is also recovering from the shock of DK selling his long term project car. It must be like dumping a family member, albeit it,one that requires continuous financial help, passes gas,leaves a mess on the floor, and shows no sign of gratitude. But still leaves a hole when they are gone.|
|No way, I must just skip over his name as a total noob|
This thread was discussed between 21/04/2011 and 20/05/2011
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